LVN Spotlight: Wendy Kao

Greg Lambert sits down with Wendy Kao, Director of Client Value at Gibson Dunn & Crutcher LLP and a dedicated member of LVN’s programming subcommittee. With a career that spans public accounting, global banking, and legal pricing, Wendy brings a broad perspective to her role. She shares how her experiences in different industries have shaped her approach to client value and pricing, focusing on the importance of adapting to client needs and shifting firm strategies. Wendy dives into the growing demand for proactive insights, transparency, and efficiency in legal services, and how innovations like AI are shaping the future of client relationships. Join this conversation to hear Wendy's insights on evolving the legal industry and her journey of building the client value department at one of the world’s leading law firms.

Greg Lambert: Hey, everyone. I'm Greg Lambert, the editor for the LVN newsletter, and this month we are shining our LVN spotlight on Wendy Kao, who is the director of client value at Gibson Dunn & Crutcher LLP. Wendy, thank you very much for being here.

Wendy Kao: Thank you so much, Greg. It's nice to be here.

Greg Lambert: All right, so Wendy, you lead the client value team at Gibson Dunn, and, you know, Gibson Dunn being one of the biggest law firms in the world. I'd like to know, when you talk about value in the legal context, how has your definition evolved throughout your career, especially when balancing the firm's priorities versus client priorities?

Wendy Kao: Yeah, absolutely. Well, I think a little context is helpful here. From my role prior to joining Gibson Dunn and Crutcher, I started my career at two of the big four accounting firms. I've always had this natural curiosity about the client side. After five years in public accounting, I moved into a global bank who was my client, and I spent about seven years doing different roles: integration, compliance, risk management, some client-facing, some not. I finally served as chief of staff to the bank's CEO in Taiwan, so I was client-facing and behind the scenes, seeing the strategic part of running a business. After that, I decided to take on a new challenge and ended up at Gibson Dunn in pricing, which I knew nothing about at the time. I thought it would be a short-term role, but here I am 11 years later. I was the first pricing hire and helped grow the client value department from the ground up. When I started, conversations around value to me were all about the numbers and what we were delivering in legal services. But over the years, that shifted. While clients still care about price, they're really asking for law firms to show value beyond just the numbers. They want firms to customize services and demonstrate an understanding of their business and strategic goals. Clients are now leading the conversation, asking how we will provide proactive insight, transparency, efficiency, and innovation, using tools like AI to reduce costs. They're also looking for us to be attuned to their day-to-day operations and read their outside counsel guidelines, for example, to know how they work. So, demonstrating value is really now about every touchpoint with the client, not just at the attorney level. I find myself spending a lot of time just listening, asking questions, and shaping our approach around what the client wants.

Greg Lambert: Yeah, the nice thing about coming in 11 years ago is that we were all kind of learning this at the same time. I can imagine that, as little as you knew, everyone else knew just as little, or maybe even less at that time.

Wendy Kao: Absolutely.

Greg Lambert: Well, let's talk about your involvement with the LVN. What initially inspired you to get involved with LVN, and what's been the most meaningful aspect of your work on the LVN program sub-committee?

Wendy Kao: Sure, yeah. You mentioned that a lot of us were just learning 10-15 years ago. Building the pricing and client value team from scratch was full of unknowns. There was no blueprint. For a firm of our size, it was really challenging and exciting. I was able to bring in my past knowledge, but it was also quite lonely. So, going to conferences like P3 and then LVN was really about learning and connecting with others who did what I did, meeting people facing similar challenges. They shared what worked, what didn’t, and it helped me avoid mistakes and save a lot of time. Being part of LVN felt like joining a nerdy hiking group or something. It was easy to say yes to volunteering for LVN. I remember ticking all the boxes for different volunteer options, and somehow, I ended up on the programming sub-committee. I thought it would be a great opportunity to collaborate with people I wish I could work with every day but don’t, and contribute back to this community that has helped my career grow.

Greg Lambert: That's great. So, you're right now, and we kind of talked about this, at this crossroads of client demands versus innovation and firm strategies. What shifts are you seeing in how law firms are being asked to demonstrate value beyond just the dollar amounts, beyond just pricing? And how do you see or how is LVN helping you lead and influence those changes, even though you're not an attorney?

Wendy Kao: Well, certainly, yes, I am not an attorney by background. In the beginning, it was challenging to speak the same language as our attorneys and clients. But many of our counterparts are client legal operations team members, who are also non-practicing attorneys. There’s a mutual language there. What I’ve seen through conversations is that clients want a law firm that thinks ahead, that’s not just reacting. We're talking about thinking ahead in terms of sharing legal and regulatory changes and how they impact their business, or what technology we’re using to lower costs, or what we're doing to manage cases, avoid risks, staff teams, and collaborate with theirs. The goal is to work less but be more effective, report against budgets, and avoid surprises. So, these client requirements are driving the innovation and strategy of the firm to deliver the services clients want. It’s a slow shift in culture, one conversation, one idea, one tweak of a spreadsheet at a time, and it gradually influences the entire ecosystem.

Greg Lambert: I’m curious, because you mentioned clients demanding AI involvement. Are you finding that the hype around AI has motivated some of the demands for efficiencies, even if those don’t necessarily involve AI, but it has opened up the conversation?

Wendy Kao: Absolutely. AI has definitely helped start the conversation. It’s that buzzword, right? Everyone talks about how it can save time and reduce billable hours, so we’re exploring ways to bring it into our work. But the conversation isn’t just about AI; it’s about any way we can save time and reduce costs, and that's what we’re discussing in budgets. It’s helped bring value into focus, but we’re still exploring what that really means together.

Greg Lambert: Final question for you. I know you pay attention to the spreadsheets and the details, but when you step back and look at the whole picture, what keeps you motivated in this field?

Wendy Kao: I still love the spreadsheets and the details, but what I really love about the work I do is that it’s like a game of Tetris. We're juggling different requests from clients, attorneys, and firm management, and it keeps me motivated when everything clicks into place. It could be those moments when the client says yes to a fee deal you've been negotiating for months, or when the partner signs an engagement letter you've been working on for months, or just a simple thank you from management for a great job. It’s the satisfaction of solving problems for others. And over the years, I’ve found motivation in growing my team and helping them become problem solvers for the firm.

Greg Lambert: Well, Wendy Kao, the director of client value at Gibson Dunn, thank you very much for letting us shine the LVN spotlight on you this month.

Wendy Kao: Thank you so much, Greg. It’s a great opportunity to be here.